Transcend and Include
I was once very involved in the Integral New York City Salon. I still read the post on their Yahoo site and occasionally post there. I pulled back a couple of years ago. One of the frustrating discussions we could never seem to have was about the possibility that the dominant integral model from Ken Wilber, while noting the need for the full integrity of the masculine and feminine was very loaded in its privileging of the masculine and transcendent.
Most often the conversation became defensive and the bigger picture of Transcendence and Immanence never got much traction. I posted my step back into the discourse here the other day. I was drawn back in by a young woman who was asking the questions I had asked and I had a feeling the time for the discussion was ripe. Some who had been in the ascendency before and had a vested interest in the status quo were feeling from others some of what they had dished out in their turn. It seems it is ever so. But, some new young minds were raising the same questions with a new force and not being shot down or ignored. I really wanted to acknowledge them in ways I had actually desired for myself back when.
I don’t feel I can use names or copy other’s post here so I am excerpting my own side of the exchange below for what it is worth.
The conversation modeled its topic in my opinion. It was very gratifying and provided us all a chance to examine our assumptions and to grow and it ended for now with good feelings I think, at least with me.
Love,
Lewis
In answer to the assertion by a bright young man that we were having two different conversations.
I wrote,
“Respectfully, I do not believe we are having two different conversations. In fact, I believe that in our conversation we are modeling exactly what we are attempting to discuss.
In my opinion, if we are to see the larger, deeper answer I think we are all seeking we need to discover the essential unity behind our points of view.
Language and concepts are not adequate at all and ultimately we will only be able to experience the unity of our seemingly disparate perspectives as an experience beyond language, concept and what we typically think of as knowledge.
We are considering the most basic reality of lived experience and indeed we may be approaching it with different emphasis and from different entry points.
In an attempt to understand a bit better I don’t know any way to proceed except to employ a few generalizations, hopefully orienting. We all actually employ our own particular mix of approaches and methods.
Perhaps the more masculine/transcendent approach is to focus on structure and the “higher” view that “sees clearly” in a way not “confused” or “muddled” by too much emotion. One looks for the universal, the transpersonal, indeed approaches the personal and particular from the perspective of the universal. This ability is essential and in this I think I completely agree with you.
This approach was essential for me to begin to escape the constructs that imprisoned me, many of which I had internalized and perpetuated from that confused and hateful society and family which you described so well. The particular sometimes seemed so hopeless that escaping into this higher vision was the only place I found hope and a motivation to go on.
That more intellectual, structural and abstracted point of view was and indeed remains the point of view that I am most comfortable with. It has been necessary for me to live and grow.
(The adjectives I use may need adjusting and may not all fit your sense of your point of view but I am simply making an effort to deepen our discourse and am in no way passing judgment on what I know I do not fully understand.)
The more feminine, immanent perspective tends to begin with felt, embodied, very personal and particular experience. It is sometimes thought of as the heart path. It approaches the universal from the experience of the particular. Nature, ritual, dance, emotion all tend to play a greater role. Judgment is often based more on felt response to life–one kind of intuition.
This perspective is also essential and it includes the ability to deeply hear and honor one another’s stories and to know that any structures or “solutions” must resonate with this lived experience and raise its quality and impact us at every level from the gross upwards.
In my natal tradition all of this us metaphorically represented in the glorified body of the risen Christ. The so called hypostatic union–the complete union of the fully human and the fully divine eternally revealed as being eternally present there already, always, past, present and future–represents our true nature and the oneness of Matter and Spirit, Humanity and Divinity, Heaven and Earth.
Of course, as in all traditions there are lesser versions and visions of the tradition but this one is firmly there in the tradition.
The Transcendent and the Immanent are not two but one reality that we experience as eternal movement, the pulse, the tidal action of God/Kosmos. That wonderful cadesus L_____ sent and her meditation upon it where the snakes recognize one another in each the other’s eyes is a beautiful metaphor or symbol as well, thanks L_____.
If we rest in the gift of the constant witness and never act it is in my opinion a pathology and fairly meaningless but if we have this perspective of witness held with the gift of constant presence here and now, conscious embodiment, and we act and create in and through the manifest then we are sharing in the creativity of the Kosmos–of God–evolution. The Kosmos acts, unfolds, creates, embodies, dances, expresses in the constant flow of change and yet is always and eternally still and unchanging as the ground of all potential from which all arises and to which all returns and arises and returns and arises and returns… and IS.
My understanding of integral is the ability to take these perspectives together at once and to see, experience the greater unity that is there-transcend is one movement which resolves itself in include. As language is dualistic we express this as alignment between Spirit and Matter but beyond all these words and concepts like kosmos, god, nondual there is this unitive experience that can become our center of consciousness, gravity…no words.
I love the metaphor of the tide because I have done my best thinking, such as it is, by the sea I think. The metaphor I have heard often is that enlightenment is when one realizes that one is not the wave but is in fact the whole sea itself.
I never liked that. To me growth (I’m not really keen on the idea of enlightenment as it is often presented)is when one realizes that one is the sea and the wave simultaneously- -one realizes that the wave always knew (perhaps not in full consciousness) that it was the sea, the expressive, dancing manifesting, creative energy of the sea that manifest and returns, manifest and returns, manifest and returns in joy, in particularity every time as an expression arising from the universal every time.
Its all gloriously messy, the mess of birth. One way is to dive into the mess and ascend from the particular to the universal, the personal to the impersonal, the immanent to the transcendent or one can get one’s act as much together as possible and descend from the transcendent to the immanent, the impersonal to the personal, the universal to the particular. Integral seems to point to what many of the mystics have know before that there is no real contradiction to going in two directions at once or experiencing two aspects of one reality unchanging and constantly changing, etc. at once.
For what it is worth…
Love,
Lewis”
The young man wrote back that I did not see that I was the constructs, I was what I hated and that by projecting it out of myself onto the abuser I was denying half of God. We were having two conversations at that point I think. I was not interested in blame or denying my own abusive potential. I was interested in not denying the body, the incarnate, matter with all of its mess. I believe that the sea is a sea of love and that only when love is confused and turned away from its goal and object does it become what we call hate. I am certainly not interested in denying my own confusion nor the often deep dark confusion of the world.
In a note to a dear friend I remarked on this as follows, “I don’t believe in sin and evil in the way most often represented either (I love Ernesto Cardinal’s Hymn of Love and Blake’s tiger and lamb poems) just that the confusion can become so deep and dark and destructive that we can’t hold it and acknowledge it because it is potentially in each of us. That is so scary. We put it out on to the other and make that other the devil, even as a super source presence outside ourselves in the darkness.”
I continued,
“In fact, the darkness is the thickness of potential, the black madonna (a bit esoteric, sorry) the energy we need to bring goodness, truth and beauty into the light. The devil is our potential in a confused form, love inverted and misdirected.”
Below is my response to the young man on the Yahoo site. He had used the label God, you know what I mean by God. He also asked why he didn’t know me.
Lewis wrote,
“In my opinion I am not the constructs. I am the I in which they often manifest and the I that I am often confuses itself with them but that I of itself is a point of
connection and expression– manifestation- -potential. I am an incarnate being, not disembodied spirit alone, but my deepest identity, body and soul, is that same “you know what I mean God.”
I’m not interested in blaming the constructs on anyone including
myself. That does not mean I am not going to point them out to myself and others and resist them when they attempt to repress or oppress or truncate. I’m just interested in realizing, waking up, being part of a waking up community that is aware more and more that they are not immutable
and in fact are constructed of the plastic substance that can be used for expressing my/our own particular version of the Divine–waking up and realizing the cell is open or rather that its appearance of solidity was always an illusion.
The constructs are in me and in us–in the ideosphere. We often share
them and manipulate them and the confusion, the inverted love
(interesting redeployment of word once used to label same-sex love)
can result in deep, dark confusion and pain and hatred and violence (individual and collective painbodies).
In fact I spend and have spent much of my time thinking I am the
constructs, good ones and bad ones, but I am not them and once I
realize that they are constructs and not ontological, that is, not
about the essential reality of my being, body or soul, then I become
free to heal and forgive and love and create. They manifest in matter
(boy can I document that with about 405 lb. at my highest weight) but
the constructs are often confusions– love turned away from its flow,
from the Beloved.
Damn it! As much as I hate to admit it, anytime I hate and project
that hatred on to someone I actually know that it is to that degree, the
degree of my hatred, that in reality I sooooooo want to love them.
That sucks! Ha! So I know I am what I hate.
I don’t want to get rid of constructs I want to align them with
Wholeness, with Spirit for their to be an essential unity of Spirit
and Matter in and through the universal and the particular aspects of
I which like L_____’s snake will recognize itself in your eyes and
> R’s eyes and J’s eyes, and Y’s eyes and S’s eyes and
> N’s eyes and and and and. A Divine Hall of Mirrors.
>
> Not sure that mirror thing works?
>
Some of this no doubt is about defining terms and comparing models.
>
> You don’t know me because I’m an old semi-hermit of very little
> worldly consequence who just has not had the pleasure of making your
> acquaintance beyond these pages. We must rectify that.
>
> Love,
> Lewis”
Two other members of the group wrote very beautiful responses. One was very deeply personal from a dear woman friend I’ll call R. Both in different ways were trying to come to terms with the sacredness of sex and with violation and abuse and trauma. R also asked why we never discuss politics on this forum.
Lewis wrote,
“How beautiful both L’s and R’s post are to me. In both I feel the desire to understand the deep foundation of the unity of Spirit and Matter–to understand the sacredness of it All.
I believe that it is the dissociation, often made so much worse by abuse, that leads to the establishment of cycles of abuse.
I am the product of Catholic boarding school and an all men’s college. Cardinal Bernard Law handed me my college diploma. It was in south Louisiana in the 1970s where the first pederasty cases were settled. I was once pre-interviewed for William F. Buckley’s PBS show and a car was sent for me to go to the interview but I was never interviewed and never told why. No big deal, but in the pre-interview the research assistant asked me if I didn’t think that the violation of a gay person by another person of the same sex was less traumatic than for a straight person?
I said no I didn’t think so. In fact I suspected it might be worse in some cases because it caused one to question one’s own sexuality and perhaps associate that aspect of one’s self, which society already condemned, with the sick and unhealthy violation from one’s abuser.
I went on to say that it could not be good for anyone to be abused and that I didn’t understand the question. Was she asking me if I enjoyed it? What if I did? If I did that only deepened the confusion and the self-doubt, even self-loathing that often haunts those who have been abused.
Later when I remembered the question I was very, very angry. Now I am grateful because it caused me to examine my own wounds and to develop what I hope is a greater sensitivity and freedom that has often helped me as a parish priest.
Imagine a generation of children brought up in the sacred consciousness L describes. Imagine the joy and the freedom. Imagine the healing for those of us who have survived the deep, dark confusion that R has been so brave to share.
It is precisely in objectifying parts of ourselves, our whole bodies, and cutting them off from their wholeness, visible and invisible, the oneness of Spirit and Matter with its full potential to express love, that leads to guilt and repression and confusion and violence and makes that which is most beautiful and powerful into something that we experience as dirty and shameful and even monstrous.
It happens at the level of our individual bodies and at the level of whole societies and at the global level where we have been enacting a real Greek tragedy against Mother Earth.
For me integral is one tool, an instrument a means to the end of doing my/our part to heal the world. That is very political to me but I’m willing to go even further and say my eyes are raw from watching Teddy Kennedy last night. As they say in Boston, “he may be an SOB but he’s our SOB.
Love,
Lewis
The young man responded again by insisting that I did not understand his point and that the personal histories and the history of male and female had to be transcended in order to find the solution or to really see. I responded again trying to agree but also say that the histories had to be included and that the application had to bear fruit in the manifest realm. One of Wilber’s descriptions of the process of evolution is that it is a process of transcend and include. Thus the statement below.
Lewis wrote,
“…nor do I disagree about the need to transcend but, once again, I must say that I think it is a matter of emphasis.
Transcend is the agentic, sometimes characterized as masculine part of what is one action the other and simultaneous part is and include the more relational and embracing feminine aspect if you will.
So both/and not either/or and if some of us emphasize one aspect and some of us more the other then we serve one another in the way L_____’s described the Darhama Wars yesterday if we can only learn to really hear one another, “he reminded himself.”
Love,
Lewis”
What a gas bag I am! Can you believe there are other geeks out there who will read and respond to this stuff? Sorry for the lack of editing.
For what it is worth I share it because I don’t have the energy to write anything new! Ha!
Love,
Lewis